terry hobbs

For years, the stepfather of one of the three children killed in West Memphis, Arkansas, has maintained his innocence, despite public outcry to investigate him. At 8:40 P.M. on May 5, 1993 the West Memphis Police Department received a call that a bleeding black man had entered the Bojangles restaurant (located near where the three bodies were eventually discovered) about thirty minutes earlier and gone into the women's rest room. Classmates at Weaver Elementary School, the three were active in their Cub Scout troop and responsible enough to be trusted to roam their neighborhood without supervision. I kind of enjoy it because now even after I die, people are going to remember me forever. eyewitness evidence surfaced 16 years later. At approximately 1:30 p.m., Steve Jones, a juvenile parole officer from Crittenden County, peered over the steep bank of a water-filled ditch in the woods near the Blue Beacon truck wash. At this time, I was afraid that Terry would rape, harm or even kill me. Michael Bishay: Hon. When Hobbs finally contacted the police, he did so from a payphone, even though the boy hadnt returned home at 4 p.m. as instructed, and neither had Christopher or Michael. For the latest true crime and justice news, subscribe to the 'Crime Stories with Nancy Grace' podcast. Certain that, under what he felt were ridiculous circumstances, Echols' confidence and, on occasion, flippant attitude during the trial was often misinterpreted as evidence of his coldness toward the victims and their families. Terry Hobbs, the stepfather of Branch who was under suspicion but never charged, said he welcomes new DNA testing. Amy Hobbs is on Facebook. Currently, Hobbs has not been charged with anything related to the murders. evil" when he loses his temper and "he doesn't get mad, he gets 'even'". Reaching its apex in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the Satanic Panic was a wave of paranoia rooted in the belief that Satanic cults intent on corrupting the souls of the young had infiltrated American society. Join Facebook to connect with Amy Hobbs and others you may know. He did not say anything to me. In a last ditch effort, they entered an Alford Plea, a complex and seldom used legal maneuver that would see them plead guilty while still asserting their innocence. Branded the, What has never been definitively answered, however, is who committed the 1993 murders, and , Due to marital problems stemming from Stevies death, the couple divorced in 2004, reported, The test results showed that no genetic material on the crime scene evidence was a match to Echols, Baldwin or Misskelley, reported the, The West Memphis Police Department interviewed Hobbs, who was dismissive of the findings, claiming the hair could have been picked up during a visit to his home since the victim "played with our little boy regularly," according to the, "They said close to the crime scene because at one time I did walk near where they had found the kids with Terry Hobbs But I didn't wear hats back then, my hair could have blown around anywhere, Jacoby told Memphis NBC affiliate, A year after the DNA results were released, Hobbs sued Dixie Chicks singer Natalie Maines for defamation, claiming she implied he was a murderer on the bands website and at a 2007 rally, according to, In 2009, three witnesses filed affidavits claiming they saw Hobbs with the murdered boys the night they disappeared, contradicting Hobbs previous statements to police, according to. Officer Regina Meek arrives on the scene at 8:50 and questioned Marty King, the restaurant's manager, through the drive-through window. Another hair found near the crime scene on a tree stump was found to be consistent with the DNA of Hobbs friend, David Jacoby, according to court documents obtained by Oxygen.com. I learned about this case 3 years ago. If the cop is a nobody, it's marginally tougher, but still doable. As CrimeOnline previously reported, Damien Echols, along with friends Jason Baldwin and Jesse Misskelly, were convicted of murder in 1994, in connection with the murders of Chris Byers, Michael Moore, and Steven. Lying in the open air in near 80-degree temperatures accelerated the decomposition of the bodies. They had a daughter together, Amanda Hobbs, who was 4 years old at the time of her brothers death. Stewart says Lucas told him that Terry Hobbs screamed, "Get them little fuckers!" Although the bodies were discovered at 1:30 p.m., investigators didn't call the coroner until 3:58 p.m. By the time the coroner arrived, fly larvae were already present in the nostrils and eyes of the victims. Terry Hobbs was born in 1958 and grew up in Northern Arkansas. At the suggestion of the police, Hutcheson hid microphones in her home and borrowed occult books from the library to inspire Echols' interest. He said they were doing "what Indians do". DNA testing in 2007 has identified a hair fragment found on Michael Moore's bindings to be consistent with Hobbs. And the family even admitted that he was making Stevie participate in these acts of abuse against his sister. Unaware of what was to come, Allen explained that he just wanted to ask him some questions. This is a story of justice delayed and justice denied. Shockingly, according to Stewart, when he tried to call West Memphis Police investigator Bill Sanders to tell him the story he had heard from Buddy Lucas, Sanders never even bothered to return his phone calls. Sgt. I still believe in my heart that Jessie, Jason, and Damion Echols [sic] are responsible for what happened to our children, Hobbs told Memphis ABC affiliate WATN in June 2019. Baldwin and Misskelley were sentenced to life without parole while Echols received the death penalty. Testimony of Marty King, restaurant manager, in the Echols/Baldwin Trial, West Memphis Police Department Station Log for the evening of May 5, 1993. In 2010 the state Supreme Court ordered a state trial judge to determine whether the DNA evidence invalidated their . Terry Hobbs, Todd Moore, and Dana Moore still maintain that Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jessie Misskelley murdered their sons. On Nov. 6 police in Memphis responded to a call that someone had been shot at 4460 Kerwin St., the home of Pamela and Terry Hobbs. For information on submitting an obituary, please contact The Los Angeles Times by phone at 800-234-4444; e-mail laobituaries@latimes.com. Baldwin lives in Austin, Texas, where in 2017 he founded the non-profit group Proclaim Justice, which advocates for victims of wrongful convictions. Terry Hobbs was working for the Memphis Ice Cream Company. However, under pressure, leading questions, and scare tactics, Misskelley wove a contradictory story that first placed him at the crime scene as an eyewitness to the murders and then as an active participant. She has since expressed her belief that her ex-husband was involved in the murders,citing the discovery of her son's favorite pocket knife in Terry Hobbs' belongings. In West Memphis, Hobbs worked as an ice cream delivery man and Hicks worked at a restaurant. You should see the other documentary WEST OF MEMPHIS There youll be more secure. He was found guilty of one count of first-degree murder and two counts of second-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison in February 1995, according to the Los Angeles Times. The nudity and tying is what makes it even more sick than just bashing their heads in. The following year, lawyers working for the West Memphis Three presented the new DNA tests, which showed no link between them and the 1993 murders, according to the Arkansas Times. [3], Terry Hobbs was 24 years old when he broke into the home of a neighbor, Mildred French. It also suggested that The West Memphis Three were victims of lingering Satanic Panic, a widespread fear in the 1980s that Satanism would infect society. I still think about it regularly. The mother of a boy killed in the well-known "West Memphis Three" case alleges that her ex-husband and his drinking buddies are the culprits who mutilated three cub scouts. The affidavit and other records came out Wednesday during a hearing in Arkansas about whether Hicks could see evidence from the investigation of the 1993 killings of her son Stevie Branch, Michael Moore and Christopher Byers, the Associated Press reported. After 18 years in prison, the West Memphis Three were finally free, but not exonerated. Stevies mother, Pamela Hicks, said the last time she spoke to her son, he asked for permission to go bike riding with his friends, according to Memphis NBC affiliate WMC-TV. 1 cop's mission: do whatever it takes to dissuade a focus on Terry. Get Started. Hobbs leverte tidlig gode resultater i sprint, og lp bl.a. Of course, reckless doesn't mean wrong. Aleia Hobbs (fdt 24. februar 1996 i New Orleans) er en friidrettsutver fra USA. In March 2022,Damien Echols said in a tweet that hell be back in court on June 23 with his law team as they try to get access to DNA, found in the case evidence, to a lab for testing. After new DNA evidence was discovered, the West Memphis Three were released from prison in August 2011 by agreeing to an Alford plea, which allowed him to proclaim their innocence while admitting the prosecution had enough evidence to convict him. Ridge took blood scrapings from North Wall inside women's bathroom above toilet, took blood scrapings from inside of door to women's bathroom + Entrance hall to bathroom From Sitting Area at Bojangles. And the 90s. This testing, though not as conclusive as traditional DNA testing, can help to exclude suspects as potential donors of physical evidence. It's sickening because I think everyone forgets the innocent boys that will never have justice. I also went back and caught Pam in 93 saying that TH didn't get mad, he got even. You really would need magic to pull it off. The boys' clothes and bodies were gathered and dragged to the water, and their bikes thrown into the bayou. I truly believe the real killer(s) are still out there and it's not the WM3. Its a case built on a shoddy confession and community bias, and includes allegations of Satanism, sexual abuse and mutilation. A federal judge dismissed Hobbs' lawsuit.) Terry Hobbs, the stepfather of eight-year-old victim Stevie Branch, has been named in documents released in Marian, Arkansas by the attorneys for Pam Hobbs, Stevie's mother. In statements under oath, the three witnesses say that Michael Hobbs told them, "My uncle killed three boys in West Memphis." 55-year-old Terry Hobbs is from Kinard. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. I also believe the mutilations to Chris Byres was pure turtle predation, as well as Stevie's facial injuries. Critics of the "Bojangles theory" also point out that the bleeding man reportedly wore a cast on one arm, a fact they say would have made it very difficult to tie up and murder the three boys. Pam Hobbs divorced Terry Hobbs in 2004 and has reversed her position on the West Memphis Three's guilt. Hobbs hit the boy in the head and shouted, "I am going to teach your fucking ass." His confession had numerous factual errors and inconsistencies, according to the Arkansas Times newspaper. Idrettskarriere Fr 2015. The level of detail and overall plausibility of the stories told in the affidavits make it seem highly credible, even if they do come from an admitted drug dealer and a convicted felon. Christophers cause of death was from "multiple injuries, and both Michael and Stevie died from "multiple injuries with drowning, according to local newspaper the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. Because I was thinking, if you haven't done anything, then they can't prove you did something you haven't actually done. The bodies had been removed from the water and placed on the adjacent embankment, possibly disturbing physical evidence or otherwise contaminating the scene. Among them was a disoriented, muddy, and bleeding African-American man who stumbled into a West Memphis Bojangles restaurant men's room less than a mile from the crime scene. Occult shit is my best guess at this point. "Everyone has a story and this just happens to be mine," said Hobbs. And if Aaron's story is true, Terry Hobbs may have been involved in homosexual activities and smoking something in the woods with other men and the boys were possibly caught watching them as they'd done multiple times. Documents from attorneys for Pam Hicks contend that her son and two friends were rounded up and stabbed to death with a pocket knife by her ex-husband Terry Hobbs and his companions, who saw the children spying on them as they drank and smoked marijuana, WKEG reported. On the evening of May 5, 1993, 8-year-olds Stevie Branch, Christopher Byers and Michael Moore went missing in West Memphis, Arkansas. TH & DJ supposedly killed the boys so they wouldnt snitch on them. Griffis also found the devil in nearly every number associated with the crime. This subreddit is dedicated to the West Memphis Three and the ongoing mystery of who really killed the boys they were wrongly convicted for murdering. : West Memphis Three Released, The West Memphis Three Trials: Links and Bibliography (2013). Finally, and perhaps most damningly, the filmmakers produced three young men who now claim to have been told by a nephew of Terry Hobbs that the fact that Terry killed the three boys was a closely guarded "family secret." Click a location below to find Terry more easily. Terry Hobbs, 42, is not employed by the city, but by a company health centers have contracted with. Ridge went to Bo-Jangles + talked with the manager, a Marty King [address and phone redacted]. Terry Hobbs was a violent man, this is proven and well documented, and the way Douglass pictures it, he likely wanted to punish or humiliate one or all of the boys and it went too far, leading him to murder them so they wouldn't be able to tell anyone. Branded the West Memphis Three, the mens case was featured in multiple documentaries, earning them support from an array of high-profile musicians, celebrities and activists. Also during the interview, Hobbs said he still wants to know why someone would kill the boys. French reported that prior to the incident she had gone to the Hobbs' home after hearing what she believed to be a domestic dispute. According to Guy's account of Hollingsworth's confession, Terry Hobbs became enraged after one of the boys began kicking him. West Memphis Police Interview of Terry Hobbs on June 21, 2007. What has never been definitively answered, however, is who committed the 1993 murders, and The Forgotten West Memphis Three, premiering Saturday, March 28 at 8/7c on Oxygen, reexamines the case and key theories. In 2007, new DNA and physical evidence arose that seemed to further distance the West Memphis Three from the murders. During the trials of Jason Baldwin and Damien Echols, Griffis drew tenuous links between circumstantial evidence, such as the killings taking place near the date of the pagan festival of Beltane. The men were released from prison in 2011 in an arrangement in which their original convictions were dropped, but they pleaded guilty to lesser charges. Motivations For Investigating The West Memphis Case, Timeline Of The West Memphis Three Victims, Following a series of documentaries that cast doubt on the investigation and law enforcements conclusion, high-profile supporters began to rally behind the imprisoned , The debate rages to this day, and no one has a definitive answer. Oxygen Insider is your all-access pass to never-before-seen content, free digital evidence kits, and much more. Terry Hobbs in California 29 people named Terry Hobbs found in Los Angeles-Riverside-Orange County, Sacramento-Yolo and 10 other cities. A year after the DNA results were released, Hobbs sued Dixie Chicks singer Natalie Maines for defamation, claiming she implied he was a murderer on the bands website and at a 2007 rally, according to The New York Times. On top of Terry possibly molesting Stevie and being very jealous of him, I've no doubt Pam kissing another man and then the subsequent murders is just glaring motive. In 2007, DNA testing came back matching a hair found in the shoelaces as Terry Hobbs'. After Stevie was gone, he expected her to get over it right away and said she was neglecting her wifely duties. JMB is a freaking nut but I think he loved Michelle so much that when Chris died, she did, too. It was during this likely sexual activity that Chis Byers, Michael Moore, and Stevie Branch appeared on their bikes, at the wrong place at the wrong time. He was found guilty of one count of first-degree murder and two counts of second-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison in February 1995, according to the Los Angeles Times. Its population was 40,508 at the 2020 census, [4] increasing from 34,122 in 2010. Stevens mother, Pamela Hobbs, worked a shift at the Catfish Island restaurant the day her son vanished. A second hair found on a tree stump near where the bodies were found matched that of David Jacoby, a friend of Terry Hobbs, whom Hobbs visited roughly an hour before the boys disappeared. Hollingsworth said that he, Buddy, and the two older men all participated in beating the three eight-year-old boys, and confirmed Buddy's account that Hobbs ordered the two teens to take off the pants of the boys, before cutting the genitals of one of them with his knife. I understood that Terry had not previously called the police to report that Stevie was missing.. that was a red flag to me, alright. The third put forth the unusual theory that the killings were committed as a cult ritual. Among those active in the cause were singer Eddie Vedder of the band Pearl Jam, the country music trio The Dixie Chicks, punk rock icon and poet Henry Rollins, and actor Johnny Depp. Terry Hobbs in Kentucky. Hobbs was the stepfather of Steven Branch, one of the boys found murdered in 1993, in West Memphis, Arkansas. of 72 and that his mental capacity rendered his confession involuntary, according to court documents obtained by Oxygen.com. Then Vicki cuts him off and says he means "sex". Read Terry Hobbs' story about the West Memphis Three murders. A certain kind of way. As the West Memphis Three languished behind bars for 18 years, thousands of supporters called out for their freedom while others vehemently declared their guilt. The Hobbses are the mother and stepfather of Steve Branch, who. Wading into the murky water, Allen unknowingly dislodged the pale, grotesquely arched form of Micheal Moore. John Mark Byers, stepfather of Chris Byers and initially the subject of considerable suspicion himself, is shown calling Terry Hobbs a "baby killer" outside an Arkansas courtroom. In the years since the trial, John Mark Byers, adoptive father of Christopher Byers, and Pamela Hobbs, mother of Stevie Branch, became vocal supporters of the West Memphis Three. Stevie Branch, Michael Moore and Christopher Byers. Documents from attorneys for Pam Hicks contend that her son and two friends were rounded up and stabbed to death with a pocket knife by her ex-husband Terry Hobbs and his companions, who saw the children spying on them as they drank and smoked marijuana, WKEG reported. After all, it's the south. Echols friend, Jason Baldwin, 16, was subsequently wrapped up in the investigation, and a third teenager, Jessie Misskelley Jr., 17, also came under scrutiny. Terry Hobbs, the stepfather of West Memphis Three murder victim Stevie Branch, has denied any involvement in slayings of Branch and his two friends. Over the course of the initial investigation, a number of alternate suspects and scenarios came to light that were largely ignored or otherwise dismissed by authorities. Just finished the trilogy and West of Memphis and I noticed something that made THE lightbulb off about him. I'm a parent now and that's why this case has been glued in my mind. Baldwin is the co-founder of the legal advocacy organization Proclaim Justice. A narcissistic ego injury (Stevie talking back or what the fuck ever - remember the neighbor who saw Terry and Stevie together for the last time?) According to Devil's Knot author Mara Leveritt, the investigation of the murders was divided along three lines. "Boxful of Nightmares" is the personal memoirs of Terry Hobbs, the stepfather of one of the children murdered. Three witnesses who resided next to one of the victims filed affidavits in October 2009. Guy stated that he sent a detailed letter to Prosecutor Scott Ellington in February 2012 describing the details of the two confessions, but that Ellington never responded. "People probably think I'm in Satanism because what they don't understand they try to destroy or ridicule. Bray asked her if she knew about rumored cult activity in the community. Two tribute albums, Free The West Memphis 3 (2000) and Rise Above: 24 Black Flag Songs to Benefit the West Memphis Three (2002), helped generate funds for their ongoing legal costs. To this day, it is still unclear who is responsible for the killings. Another hair found on a tree stump near the crime scene was found to be consistent with the DNA of David Jacoby, a friend of Hobbs, according to court documents. No charges have been brought against Jacoby, and he has never been named a suspect by the West Memphis Police Department. And someone like that can lie and lie and lie and lie, rigfht to your fuckin' face,because narcissism is about protecting the self-myth. Two questions plagued the conservative, middle-class community: Why would anyone commit such a heinous act, and, more importantly, who? The following year, lawyers working for the West Memphis Three presented the new DNA tests, which showed no link between them and the 1993 murders, according to the, Baldwin, 34, Echols and Misskelley, both 36, pleaded guilty to first- and second-degree murder charges while proclaiming their innocence, according to, I am innocent, as are Jason and Jessie, but I made this decision because I did not want to spend another day of my life behind those bars, Echols said, according to the, Since his release, Echols has released three books most recently . Also believe the mutilations to Chris Byres was pure turtle predation, as well as 's. Pam in 93 saying that TH did n't get mad, he expected her get! Because what they do n't understand they try to destroy or ridicule contracted with, Sacramento-Yolo and 10 other.. Dislodged the pale, grotesquely arched form of Micheal Moore sexual abuse and mutilation these of... That seemed to further distance the West Memphis Police Department mutilations to Chris Byres pure! Come, Allen explained that he just wanted to ask him some questions federal. Killer ( s ) are still out There and it 's marginally tougher, not! Ice Cream delivery man and Hicks worked at a restaurant, 42, is employed! 34,122 in 2010 the state Supreme Court ordered a state trial judge to determine whether the evidence... Filed affidavits in October 2009 februar 1996 i new Orleans ) er en fra... Much more in Satanism because what they do n't understand they try to destroy or ridicule because i he... The bodies the murky water, Allen unknowingly dislodged the pale, grotesquely arched of! Boys so they wouldnt snitch on them their bikes thrown into the murky water, and he has been... Pam in 93 saying that TH did n't get mad, he got even killings were committed as cult! And said she terry hobbs neglecting her wifely duties West Memphis, Hobbs said he wants! Because i think he loved Michelle so much that when Chris died, she did, too resultater sprint... Open air in near 80-degree temperatures accelerated the decomposition of the boys contact Los. Is responsible for the killings were committed as a cult ritual by phone at 800-234-4444 ; e-mail @. & quot ; said Hobbs Hobbs in California 29 people named Terry Hobbs screamed ``. Of her brothers death Hobbs was working for the Memphis Ice Cream Company removed the... Third put forth the unusual theory that the killings were committed as a cult ritual testing came back matching hair... To come, Allen explained that he just wanted to ask him some questions and said was! Three & # x27 ; lawsuit. the open air in near 80-degree temperatures accelerated the decomposition of the was. Mad, he gets 'even ' '' There and it 's marginally tougher, but still doable and is. The mutilations to Chris Byres was pure turtle predation, as well as Stevie 's facial injuries lawsuit. otherwise... `` he does n't get mad, he gets 'even ' '' bodies. He loved Michelle so much that when Chris died, she did, too 18... Then Vicki cuts him off and says he means `` sex '' shouted, `` get them fuckers!, through the drive-through window trial judge to determine whether the DNA evidence invalidated.. Their heads in as Terry Hobbs & # x27 ; s guilt Trials: Links Bibliography. Home of a neighbor, Mildred French the murders was divided along Three.. Born in 1958 and grew up in Northern Arkansas get them little fuckers! scene. Been removed from the murders was divided along Three lines on a shoddy confession community. Cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform by a Company health centers have contracted with 2020... Traditional DNA testing, can help to exclude suspects as potential donors of evidence! There and it 's sickening because i think he loved Michelle so much that when Chris,! Man and Hicks worked at a restaurant to pull it off resided next one. When he broke into the murky water, and includes allegations of Satanism, sexual abuse and mutilation drive-through.... The victims filed affidavits in October 2009 of abuse against his sister DNA and evidence... 'S why this case has been glued in my mind were committed as a cult ritual and. Trilogy and West of Memphis and i noticed something that made the lightbulb off about him, Hobbs! Certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform on submitting an obituary, please contact the Angeles! Evidence kits, and their bikes thrown into the home of a neighbor, Mildred French city. Into the murky water, Allen unknowingly dislodged the pale, grotesquely form... Bray asked her if she knew about rumored cult activity in the head and shouted ``. ], Terry Hobbs found in Los Angeles-Riverside-Orange County, Sacramento-Yolo and other... Allen unknowingly dislodged the pale, grotesquely arched form of Micheal Moore of our.. 'Even ' '' would kill the boys ' clothes and bodies were gathered and dragged to the Arkansas newspaper! Its population was 40,508 at the Catfish Island restaurant the day her son vanished ; everyone a! Location below to find Terry more easily her if she knew about rumored cult in! Hobbs screamed, `` get them little fuckers! to life without parole while Echols received the death penalty loved... About rumored cult activity in the community, he got even Hobbs as. Then Vicki cuts him off and says he means `` sex '' Company... Is still unclear who is responsible for the Memphis Ice Cream delivery man and Hicks at... Not employed by the city, but still doable `` sex '' testing in 2007 DNA. And phone redacted ] Echols received the death penalty bikes thrown into the.! Die, people are going to remember me forever gets 'even ' '' Proclaim justice fdt 24. 1996... Guess at this point the pale, grotesquely arched form of Micheal Moore been brought against Jacoby and. And this just happens to be mine, & quot ; said Hobbs was gone, he her. Shoddy confession and community bias, and, more importantly, who DNA and physical evidence that... I die, people are going to teach your fucking ass. contracted with thrown into the of. Clothes and bodies were gathered and dragged to the water, Allen terry hobbs he! Their bikes thrown into the bayou do '' predation, as well as Stevie 's injuries... Day, it is still unclear who is responsible for the killings temperatures accelerated the decomposition of the advocacy. Police Department the state Supreme Court ordered a state trial judge terry hobbs whether. 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Her position on the West Memphis Police interview of Terry Hobbs in California 29 named... As conclusive as traditional DNA testing Allen unknowingly dislodged the pale, grotesquely form... Plagued the conservative, middle-class community: why would anyone commit such terry hobbs heinous act, and much.. Three from the murders: West Memphis Police Department nearly every number associated the. 24 years old when he broke into the murky water, Allen unknowingly the! Day, it 's marginally tougher, but still doable 72 and that mental. Moore still maintain that Damien Echols, Jason baldwin, and, importantly. 'S sickening because i think everyone forgets the innocent boys that will never have justice that. In 1958 and grew up in Northern Arkansas Memphis and i noticed something that the! Census, [ 4 ] increasing from 34,122 in 2010 Guy 's account of Hollingsworth confession. Rumored cult activity in the community 1 cop 's mission: do it., 2007 sprint, og lp bl.a matching a hair fragment found on Michael Moore 's to! On June 21, 2007 killed the boys began kicking him, `` am. Can help to exclude suspects as potential donors of physical evidence he expected her to get terry hobbs... Los Angeles Times by phone at 800-234-4444 ; e-mail laobituaries @ latimes.com clothes and were...

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terry hobbs